That "He" desires all to come!
That "He" desires all to come!
In this post we will be looking at the two main passages that are used to defend an Arminian belief that Jesus died for every person who has every lived. My heart would love to accept that Jesus did die for all, and that all would be saved, but God’s word does not give us this option, and who are we to tamper with God’s Word. Let God be God and let us praise him for his Grace upon us. We can only bow our heads and thank him for his Mercy .
The two passage that are used to enforce their belief in universal redemption are 1 Timothy 2;4 and 2 Peter 3;9. It is over the context of the statements, which say "Who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" and "Not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
I do believe that for some one new to the scriptures that reading these verses’straight off one may think that universal desire is what the passage is saying. But under closer detail before we even look at the whole of the Bibles teaching on salvation, I do believe the context of the two passages does not teach universal redemption.
1 Timothy 2;4
"First of all then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quite life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
The first appearance of the phase "all men" comes at the end of verse 1, and its meaning must be fairly clear. Paul is not asking that Timothy proclaim that entreaties and prayers be made for every person who has every lived, It would be crazy as some world be dead already in hell. No he is asking that prayers be made to the "all" he has in context.
Who are these "all" that Paul is talking about? The very next phase tells us "for kings and all who are in authority. Why does he say to pray for them? Cause they would be the ones in power controlling the persecution of Christians. The "all" that Paul is taking about in verse 1 is all kinds of people in authority.
Then Paul states that such prayers for all kinds of men is good and acceptable "in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved". If we are consistent with the preceding context we will see "all men" here in the same manner as "all men" of the proceeding verses; all kinds of men. God wants us to pray for kings and people in authority for a quite life and also that these kinds of people would be saved also. God saves Kings as well!
The "all who he desires to be saved are from the "all" in verse 1, kings and those who are in authority.
For those who disagree, they then must accept that Paul was asking Timothy to pray for every one in the world that all would be saved. But the passage does not say that.
We must also look at the word "Ransom" in verse 6. What is a ransom? Well the nature of a ransom is such that when paid and accepted it automatically frees the person for whom it was intended. Other wise it would not be a true ransom, but a failed deal.
Christ’ ransom was either a saving ransom or a non-saving one. If it is actual and really made in behalf of all men, then all people have been purchased and will be saved, but this does not fit with the text or the rest of scripture. If God wanted all to be saved, that being every person who has ever lived, why didn’t he chose every one in Christ from the foundation of the world and predestine them to adoption as son’s?
Jesus’ ransom purchased and released his chosen people from the power of sin (Rev 5;9). They were purchased so when the gospel calls them they would freely come. This passage does not teach universal redemption.
2 Peter 3;9,
"Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation," For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by his word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God…"
James white says in the "The Potters freedom" of this verse,
Immediately one sees that unlike such passages as Ephesians 1, Romans 8-9, or John 6, this passage is not speaking about salvation as its topic. The reference to "coming to repentance" in 3;9 is made in passing. The topic is the coming of Christ…But the next thing that stands out upon the reading of the passage is the clear identification of the audience to which Peter is speaking. When speaking of mockers he refers to them in the third person, as "them". But everywhere else he speaks directly to his audience as the "beloved" and "you". He speaks of how his audience should behave "in holy conduct and godliness" and says that they look for the day of the Lord…This is vitally important, for the assumption made by the Arminian is that when verse 9 says the Lord is "patient towards you" that this "you" refers to everyone. Likewise, then, when it says "not wishing for any to perish" but "all to come to repentance," it is assumed that the "any" refers to anyone, the entire human race. Yet, the context indicates that the audience is quite specific. In other passages of scripture the interpreter would realize that we must decide who the ""you" refers to and use this to limit the "any" and "all’ of verse 9. (White, The Potters freedom, p. 146)
James White makes it obvious I think who the "YOU" can only be. The you is called the beloved, who is told to be holy in conduct and godliness, and to wait for the coming of the Lord. Why is the Lord slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but that all to come to repentance? The answer is because if Christ was to come back straight away all of the elect would not have been brought in to saving faith, and they would perish. God chose the elect before the foundation of the word, but the elect must still in "Time" believe. To reject this view, is to ignore who the promise is being made to and to pull out a small section of the passage from its context. The text is not saying that God wants the entire world to come to repentance.
Another verse that is some times used is verse Ezekiel 18;23
Ezekiel 18; 23, "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Says the Lord God, and not that he should turn from his ways and Live?.
The problem with this verse is that taken by its self, one might believe this is a universal claim that God wants all to be saved. But when we look into the rest of scripture we come across 1 Samuel 2;22-25 which says "But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death". This can change the whole understanding of Ezekiel 11; 23.
In some sense he wants some people to live, and at other times others to die. He even desires to put them to death.
In our next post we will look weather scriptures is clear God’s on intentions, to whom did God give his promises to?
In this post we will be looking at the two main passages that are used to defend an Arminian belief that Jesus died for every person who has every lived. My heart would love to accept that Jesus did die for all, and that all would be saved, but God’s word does not give us this option, and who are we to tamper with God’s Word. Let God be God and let us praise him for his Grace upon us. We can only bow our heads and thank him for his Mercy .
The two passage that are used to enforce their belief in universal redemption are 1 Timothy 2;4 and 2 Peter 3;9. It is over the context of the statements, which say "Who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" and "Not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
I do believe that for some one new to the scriptures that reading these verses’straight off one may think that universal desire is what the passage is saying. But under closer detail before we even look at the whole of the Bibles teaching on salvation, I do believe the context of the two passages does not teach universal redemption.
1 Timothy 2;4
"First of all then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quite life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
The first appearance of the phase "all men" comes at the end of verse 1, and its meaning must be fairly clear. Paul is not asking that Timothy proclaim that entreaties and prayers be made for every person who has every lived, It would be crazy as some world be dead already in hell. No he is asking that prayers be made to the "all" he has in context.
Who are these "all" that Paul is talking about? The very next phase tells us "for kings and all who are in authority. Why does he say to pray for them? Cause they would be the ones in power controlling the persecution of Christians. The "all" that Paul is taking about in verse 1 is all kinds of people in authority.
Then Paul states that such prayers for all kinds of men is good and acceptable "in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved". If we are consistent with the preceding context we will see "all men" here in the same manner as "all men" of the proceeding verses; all kinds of men. God wants us to pray for kings and people in authority for a quite life and also that these kinds of people would be saved also. God saves Kings as well!
The "all who he desires to be saved are from the "all" in verse 1, kings and those who are in authority.
For those who disagree, they then must accept that Paul was asking Timothy to pray for every one in the world that all would be saved. But the passage does not say that.
We must also look at the word "Ransom" in verse 6. What is a ransom? Well the nature of a ransom is such that when paid and accepted it automatically frees the person for whom it was intended. Other wise it would not be a true ransom, but a failed deal.
Christ’ ransom was either a saving ransom or a non-saving one. If it is actual and really made in behalf of all men, then all people have been purchased and will be saved, but this does not fit with the text or the rest of scripture. If God wanted all to be saved, that being every person who has ever lived, why didn’t he chose every one in Christ from the foundation of the world and predestine them to adoption as son’s?
Jesus’ ransom purchased and released his chosen people from the power of sin (Rev 5;9). They were purchased so when the gospel calls them they would freely come. This passage does not teach universal redemption.
2 Peter 3;9,
"Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation," For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by his word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God…"
James white says in the "The Potters freedom" of this verse,
Immediately one sees that unlike such passages as Ephesians 1, Romans 8-9, or John 6, this passage is not speaking about salvation as its topic. The reference to "coming to repentance" in 3;9 is made in passing. The topic is the coming of Christ…But the next thing that stands out upon the reading of the passage is the clear identification of the audience to which Peter is speaking. When speaking of mockers he refers to them in the third person, as "them". But everywhere else he speaks directly to his audience as the "beloved" and "you". He speaks of how his audience should behave "in holy conduct and godliness" and says that they look for the day of the Lord…This is vitally important, for the assumption made by the Arminian is that when verse 9 says the Lord is "patient towards you" that this "you" refers to everyone. Likewise, then, when it says "not wishing for any to perish" but "all to come to repentance," it is assumed that the "any" refers to anyone, the entire human race. Yet, the context indicates that the audience is quite specific. In other passages of scripture the interpreter would realize that we must decide who the ""you" refers to and use this to limit the "any" and "all’ of verse 9. (White, The Potters freedom, p. 146)
James White makes it obvious I think who the "YOU" can only be. The you is called the beloved, who is told to be holy in conduct and godliness, and to wait for the coming of the Lord. Why is the Lord slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but that all to come to repentance? The answer is because if Christ was to come back straight away all of the elect would not have been brought in to saving faith, and they would perish. God chose the elect before the foundation of the word, but the elect must still in "Time" believe. To reject this view, is to ignore who the promise is being made to and to pull out a small section of the passage from its context. The text is not saying that God wants the entire world to come to repentance.
Another verse that is some times used is verse Ezekiel 18;23
Ezekiel 18; 23, "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Says the Lord God, and not that he should turn from his ways and Live?.
The problem with this verse is that taken by its self, one might believe this is a universal claim that God wants all to be saved. But when we look into the rest of scripture we come across 1 Samuel 2;22-25 which says "But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death". This can change the whole understanding of Ezekiel 11; 23.
In some sense he wants some people to live, and at other times others to die. He even desires to put them to death.
In our next post we will look weather scriptures is clear God’s on intentions, to whom did God give his promises to?
posted by Rich7 at 8:55 PM
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